The guys discuss if DMM and CPM are the same “here”, the west, as they are “there”, overseas.
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Episode Snippet:
Today we are talking about disciple making movements and church planting movements, how we see them here in the West in contrast and comparison to how it is overseas and how is it in third world countries. What is the same and what is different? What does that look like?
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[PLEASE NOTE THAT THE FOLLOWING TRANSCRIPTION HAS BEEN AUTOGENERATED AND MAY CONTAIN ERRORS]
Welcome to the LNA podcast, A Space to connect, communicate and collaborate for the advancement of the Kingdom in North America and beyond. Here we will discuss the disciple making movement that is happening in this Western context and the return to God's design for discipleship. Church and life.
Talking about the disciple making movements and church planting movements, how do we see how we see that here in the West and in contrast or comparison to how it is overseas and how is it third world countries to do the same different? What does that look like?
Yeah. So our Guy's been doing it longer than I have. But the guy who coached me up, trained me up said all missions is the same thing they're doing here. So if you're doing it like it's basically we're not doing anything new there or here being bold enough to do something, that's old.
And so everyone's commanded to make disciples of the promise of his presence a strong sense of with the command to make disciples of all nations. So the basically core command is to make disciples. Well, everyone is someplace.
So it's the same thing. We're making disciples that make disciples. The "How"? By a loving God, loving others and making disciples that make disciples. The tools are amazingly similar from 80 over 90%. There's context for the basic stuff that we're doing is the same there as it is here.
Guy can get into it and, you know, share about that. The difference is, is that we have a different model, that preexisting model, maybe that emerged away from the simplicity of that. So it's more difficult for people in a Western context to understand it because they've never seen or heard.
That's good. I mean, I think we said the why behind it and understanding the why and the tools may be variations and changing that the why we do it because we're pursuing "The Father's Heart" you know, from Genesis to revelation has a heart for all nations or transformation for multiplication through generations until there's no place left for the glory of the Lord's powers, the earth is the water covers the sea. So I mean, to me, that's the "Why" that's to me, the "Why" behind what we do is to hear him, to obey him, to share him.
Those are the core things that move us forward and that needs to be both here and there. And just a practical to me, those are practical issues of if we try to do it there and we haven't been doing it here, we're going to be ineffective there.
I really can't do it. I've seen that over and over again, where we send people out of a structure, out of a model that doesn't really know how to make disciples is, let's say, more attractional, consumer, whatever you want to say.
And then we send them there, and they're very ineffective because they haven't been doing it here. And so we want to here, there and everywhere. And the only way to do that is understanding "Why" the principles behind it, the core task, the power, the spirit.
And I think that's essential for what we're talking about both here and there.
So that's why we start with "Why", "Who", "How" in that order. But if you think about it, just the first Amendment giving them a prior paradise lost, be fruitful and multiply and replenish the Earth. I jokingly say, I wonder when people stop reading the Bible like the whole metanarrative of the Bible is for the glory of God...to cover the earth as the water covers the sea...through mankind, created in His image, "Paradise Lost" redeemed through Jesus and carrying that image and multiplying generations of God's children through Jesus who came in the fullness of time to do that.
That's the picture. And I'm like, Wow! Everybody needs to get that everywhere. And the challenges is as that the sun during those, hey, let's go. Let's build a tower, let's have a king, let's put our hand to that and try to manufacture that.
You can't. You cannot pass on what you do not possess. Like one of the seven things from the Navy as obey and train others. Guy is doing the same thing from their home in Houston, Texas. Okay, I'm doing from our home in Tampa, Florida. That can...
...I can name lots of those same image.-bearers in Central Asia, Southeast Asia, Africa. We're all connected with Father Jesus. in love with him and one another and share in that with others. That's where/how it supposed to. wtih every person, every people as it flows as disciples, churches and the church.
I mean, I think there's also just some practical things about where we are now in a Western context is that we're losing ground. But of course, also the nations are here. And so. To me, if we're going to be able to reach our cities, we are not going to be able to do it in existing models the
way we've been trying to do it before, come on, roll with us. It's not going to work. We have to go to where the people are engaged them where they are. Every passion, people, place segments their domain within these large urban sprawl that we have in North America. It's going to take multiplication in order to reach any percentage increase. Now we are losing ground. Churches are dying at a faster rate. There's people are and don't even know within the church. 51% bar just said, don't even know that there is a great commission or a full understanding of it. So there's a lot of just factual things that are going on here in the West that should put attention on us to adjust, make some changes, listen to the Lord, hear, obey and start sharing.
Yes, so that's why from micro to macro, what we are doing. OK, so from your home the church that is in your home and you're at home is that we're not in competition with one another. The whole thing makes it up that like we're failing.
Like we should face that that we're failing that. Why would we be mobilizing people to try to reach someone, someone else when you don't have it yourself? And so that dynamic is we cannot manufacture movement and we can't manage it.
We have to be it. We have to be disciples. We have to be churches.
Or we.
And we need to have to be able to work and know that Guy and I both see this. There needs to be an expression of that in our country, from house to house, city to city. That's why I'm excited about projects like this, where it can be heard and seen that exists in Houston, that exist in Tampa. You can actually go and you can hear and you can see and it's substantive. It's salt and light. And we want people to engage around that everything we have is theres.
Yeah. And I think we're not saying that, particularly in a rural area or villages, that it's going to look exactly the same in a large urban sprawl. I mean, in all its urban area, it's like villages stacked up on villages upon villages. And the complexity is it's great. But still, the simplicity of the "Why", of what we should be doing of expressing life through our relationship with Christ and with others is key in order to begin to reach our cities and transform them.
Centralized, centralized structure will stop that every time. I'm not, I'm not condemning of but praise God for every good thing in our country in a Western context. But there are over well. There were over 400,000 traditional churches, right hundred 400,000 traditional churches are going off on the side of things matter.
It doesn't work. It has to be decentralized and spreading, and I don't care if it spreads from rural to urban or rural. But there are massive gaps across our nation, even in our nation that name what percentage is ready for average.
How to reach.
People. But we have a myriad of unreached that engage or at least engage people inside of our country. How are we going to address that? And it has to be a model that can spread. And. That and to realize that that is still validated the church. Our disciples and churches that are doing all need to collaborate with lying around. And I'm excited that like this where I should talk about it and we're actively pursue it.
We're actually pursuing it. You know, I've been walking this way with Stacey for about a year. It has been like, I don't really buy longer. That started the guy in in the nineties, so it's tremendously encouraging to me.
You know, that we're co-laboring with one another as close disciples and churches. So I would think that would be encouraging you to as a younger person, is that person that. Oh, we're.
Alone, right? Yeah.
That's right. And then just being able to know that it's everywhere. This is what's happening. This is what people are doing and can be encouraged. Final? Yeah, but not this. You're doing it or you're doing it, but it's happening overseas and it's happening and it's very encouraging.
So why? Why is that connecting and communicating and collaborating with each other across state lines and nation lines, from east to west to what it was that essential to see really a disciple making movement here in the United States and grow and.
Here at is the possibility of at least has been.
So this makes my heart beat faster someone like a guy who at first but is like, this is the target of the law.
Yeah. Now get ready for Johnson because the true I mean, John, 17, we see Jesus praying over. The very thing that we're talking about here is he wants us to connect, communicate, collaborate. That's how his kingdom goes. Is will be die hard as it is in heaven.
I mean, and it's clear that the only way that's going to happen is the relationship with a voluntary relationship with him that he's given out. So work to complete that he's set himself apart and therefore says that we need to be set apart Generation Z and Unity.
So that all made up. And I mean, that's that's the that's the why behind what we're doing. And if we don't connect, communicate, collaborate, then we're not going to get anywhere. You know, and so we've got to do the work of connecting together and collaborate and it is work.
Yeah, it is work remaining connected with others, even through maybe disagreements or differences. We have to work together. We are better together.
Yes, he's right. I had your wife. I always had your wife of the father's heart. It's for every person, every people, every place that the whole world might have of the fathers of the son. Jesus mom embodied for this is what I see the father do, and that's what I'm doing.
And then you vested deeply.
In.
Those few over a short period of time.
And prayed.
That they might be one why that the world might know the father as we exist, because a few got it right. They, he addressed deeply into the four year old, prayed that we might all that ever believe because of all of us that we might want every person, every people, every place at the moment that the father
of the Sun. So almost 16 overall, Jesus modeled it. The disciples it.
We had to do it. We have.
To pursue.
That in.
Abandonment to our Lord Jesus, the captain of our salvation, our all.
With one another.
I was an orphan. My first child. Remember, my dad dropped me off. If you want to say I'm 61 years old and I can still remember, even though feel like being abandoned.
At the orphanage.
When I came to study and the first time I ever heard somebody say.
Hey, I love you.
The first pop to remind the Holy Spirit, for instance, are No. We know. We know we passed. Love anybody before, before Jesus. I don't know of anyone. We know who passed. And that what? Because of you, I want to know you're my brother because of Jesus.
That story is life to everybody. And we're not going to be that. It's almost.
Like.
Really, if I'm your brother, you're going to hear about.
It and you.
Share it with me. That's how I never knew that before. And what was four years old was hard for me to say.
There was.
So lot like that.
Just.
Because I was captivated by Chapter two. Now that's different. I never in the worst of the model that we're start to see it, not just their not just their life or not just in Southeast Asia. They're further ahead.
Got it right. So we're actually beginning to do that and to connect, communicate and collaborate. Not as far along with good reason. We always think that we're all about Egypt's in the West. Not like we are not. We have much to learn from our brothers and sisters that have locked in these ways, and we do have a
model for these amazing photos of the elements. You sit there because they're the ones that are actually doing right thing, right? So it is there. And I also look at ourselves as like, we're a missionary nation, the guys.
I'm not saying that you can be called to go there, but certainly if you're not, if you don't see it here, if you don't do it here, you're not going to be able to do that.
Yeah, I mean, I think to me.
In in.
Here in the North America, we need to see existing structures, existing believers, everyone come together in order to tackle the amount of losses, the lack of discipleship, the incredible lack of transformation in our cities, our communities, our families and we.
We need to stop allowing political things to divide us. You know, a lion is certainly greater than both a dog and an elephant. And so the kingdom is great when you come together for that, for the kingdom and.
We need kingdom ecosystems in our cities where existing believers and structures are coming together to see this kingdom governance will be done in our cities, in our communities and certainly in our families and our individual lives. And so this whole connect, communicate, collaborate is just essential because that's what Jesus was praying for us and we're here as
a result of that prayer. And we have a responsibility to hear that to it and to share it. And that's why it's essential for us individually, for our marriages, families, communities and cities. And so I just feel like that that is just core to who we are as identifying as Christ followers.
It's definitely essential because I feel like we're not connecting communicating forward, not only missing out on model what you're saying, being able to see the model as they hear from that. But we're also you could be fighting against each other.
Yes, that's exactly right. And we could be doing things to where two people are doing it. Or like you're saying, we're split over the line over things or we could be unified in a body of crisis instead of worrying about you just like scripture.
And if I'm in your so aware of that, so much we really work together, how much more can we see it explode here? And that's what we want.
What do I have that you need? How can I answer? How can I pray for you? How can I serve you? And to be able to be connected to know that that's.
Available like.
Everything I have is or isn't that what we're supposed to be doing with one another and not be isolated on the inside? And it sounds like for that white space.
Between us that for.
The world? Yeah.
Matt, let me just say just in a story of encouragement and used to what we're starting to see is is megachurches or legacy churches or non-profits, micro, small, organic churches. We've got disciples, churches, leaders coming together to see our city transform, agreeing upon the why behind what we do and even process, which is just simple.
You know, there's a lot of fathers who are we all need to abide. It's only through Jesus. We've got to engage people where they are. We need a larger simply share. The good news is everyone know how to do that.
Then do we have a simple process of discipleship but also understand holistic, discipleship and we know how to gather people, develop leaders and reproduce that process over and over again and work an agreement among some? Not all. I mean, it's not like it's perfect or anything, but we are moving in that direction.
I've been doing this a long time. I haven't seen the type of agreement among leadership to say we have got to get on the same page and move forward towards this for the father's heart and for our city.
That's just that excites me to go.
So how about throwing that out there? What about like how we're gather here and what that looks like from Houston to Tampa to San Francisco? So it's basically goes back to the question, is it the same thing? Yeah.
So it's not just one. It is the city church that is comprised of many different churches, but you are connecting, communicating and collaborating and right overcoming darkness and seeing both multiply and disciples and churches that transformative events because we are connecting, communicate and collaborate.
And it is work. It takes effort and it takes focus. But we're not myopic. That's not like, Oh, that's that. That's the interesting guy connected to Tammany. He says, Well, where is it besides this? Like that, right? And I'm like, That's been amazing because we're overcoming those boundaries that would divide us in agreeing or, OK, well, square
walk over this community with one another. Let's share with one another where you're good at some of those things. How do we help people to become sustainable as businesses and to see community trends, see their businesses in economically deprived areas, emerge as disciples and churches and working on those things intentionally with one another as the church as
the expression of this city church with one another. As John said. Previous Johnson's senior, it looks the same way. Like, lots of things are recited in Houston, Tampa and other places in the world as a part of that.
Yeah, I know this stuff seems like it's it's 40,000 feet, but it's based upon identity and who we are. We are trying to obey and express who God has already communicated, said in his word, who we are, that we are one.
We are one church, and so can we start moving in simple ways? And in our first in our whole in and out into our communities in such a way that God's eternal purpose, which is for is manifold wisdom that's at these 383.
Well, that is manifold, which will be revealed to the heavens as we connect, communicate and collaborate. And that happens in our communities, city to city. There's one body in our city, there's one body over the world. But are we living that out in such a way in our local expression and recognize we're connected broadly?
And that's important for us to start working together since he and I have been working together. I feel like if the Lord has just opened my eyes open, I don't know. It's hard to even explain because its spirit is hard to explain.
But I've seen the effects of his wind blowing upon our city and his city and other cities that I feel like there. We're on the cusp of a tipping point in so many ways. I don't understand all that.
I'm claiming this huge revival, but I'm seeing openness and willingness to work together in ways that I've never seen.
So do you think we're not connected organizational you? It's not organization. This is like what he's talking about. This is Jesus and what he's saying to the. I can name places like so used it to Tampa, the people that we're working with in Central Asia to Africa.
Welcome to cross-pollinating and not to own and not so like brand in this sort of brand. And that that's a model, this oneness with Jesus.
And.
The father we had to share. And to see what that looks like to multiply disciples, churches, all community for inspiration and for it to be scaling and sustainable was salt and light in every tribe nation. In time, we're pursuing the great commission with one another in obedience to Jesus relational.
Not organization.
There's a practical example of what he talked about. You say, so you.
Say, Wow, this is look.
These guys are talking about is we came together in a location with Houston, Tampa leaders from the Horn of Africa, leaders from three different Central Asian nations to have these kinds.
Of conversations to spur one another off.
Towards the good works and connecting, communicating and collaborating so that all may know and several of these nations. I mean, when you talk about the horn and Central Asia, we're talking about on the top of all kinds of lists.
And so we came together North America, you know, Central Asia and the Horn of Africa to express the father's heart together, the love of each other, but to connect, communicate and collaborate so that all may know. And that was just a beautiful picture of exactly what he's talking about.
We spent a week together and there's still ongoing. Ah, he talks to them. We talked about his a power station this morning, Hugh Segal, who worked with our teams at the Horn of Africa. That's what we're talking about, and that's what we need to see happen in our cities and our communities.
As I said over and over again.
It's not like tariffs will come command control. It's not that way. And that's one thing that we have to face an area like we all talk about it. That's like the elephant in the room, like, Oh, this is our yeah, and nobody owns anybody that really owns anybody.
Right? Organizations don't own.
People.
You don't produce food. We bear fruit. Yes. And we bear fruit by actually. Yeah, and actually doing what they do to calm community what we see as to what we see export. We share that way across those boundaries because that's that's going to so be it.
So that's why we don't see ourselves looking at our silos and our friends, everybody else. That's hard for.
Us because it exists.
Right? And you have things.
Yeah, and you have to have that humility to say that it's not about me, isn't about the organization or my my area, my town, the city, my home. It's it's about God's kingdom and what he's doing and globally.
And I think that's so important to be able to let go of that so that we can know how it fits together. I mean, really, how we communicate, collaborate to really figure out how that really fits together to benefit it.
And so I like I just feel like our own spirit inside is right now. You're remarkably younger.
Than we are.
From the way what you just said what? People want to see that. But here's another generation. But there's a reason why millennials don't go to church. People ask like you follow and you're just what own citizens. And so people should hear the things they should hear that they should see that that's why we're, you know, our fault
, OK? Because I think it's this way.
You can.
Catalyze more with less hierarchy and the anger as opposed to more hierarchy.
Over.
So I just want to speak truth and encourage encouragement inside of this right now. No need to go because that was not it. That's true.
Yeah. I mean, one of the things I would say that's necessary here is most of our as we put most of our organizational structures are white smoker spider, and we need more strong starfish structures in our cities where you know you take the starvation, you chop, chop it up.
It's just going to regenerate and they actually hold it. While if you take a snake, you cut its head right off. Boom, that's a passing. The spider is dead. And so we need together to come together and we need to see ourselves as we smarter than me.
RCR is a great example, and that's what we need to invest using working together, targeting systems. That's what we need in our cities here. And that's the thing I've repented out of the most and continue to repent of is my individualism, even while on the site, which can be a problem because you want on one really can't
express the kind of life that you want on one need to obey.
Yeah, but it needs to.
We even in that Africans understand it takes a village. You know you want to go fast, go by yourself, you want to go far, go together. I mean, all of those principles are the East. A lot of ways to grasp this stuff, and we're slow to respond.
And part of it is because of our ability to enterprise and to make profits, borrow everybody as we've lost the prophetic and space, not hearing from the spirit thing and sharing. And we don't do it very well together.
We don't play well together. And what we're trying to do is try to mobilize some of that individualism and we have individual responsibility here, McLeary. But we are so much better together and we've got to be more Adobe to our individualism, to the whole rock star creature mentality.
And we need this starfish.
Structures up, right?
I think preservation organization, obviously there is fear attached to that, OK, and we just got our own that we all make up his word by we all as parts of are part of that building of that broad of that body.
That's the collective we so that a universal church. They're global. Let's see if we have to up. We have to communicate and collaborate in love with you.
So the.
Whole world knows and that does occur.
Like.
It can occur or we get better and stronger at every level that you have to do it at every level with one another. That's why this is important and all religions are important and all.
Nations.
Are important nation and nation. We can do more, but we're not going.
To.
Do that using the same paradigm and models that siloed itself. We're not going to use spiders, spiders, spiders, snakes or octopuses. We can't do it as scientists to really give it the.
Analogy about this. That's great. And I also along the same lines that you were saying earlier across people individually communicating, collaborating, even because I think that, you know, we've been talking about innovations and thinking about us each that talking to other movements.
But even like you're saying, different generations being able to talk. Yes. Yes, yes. And because and the mindset is different because I think a big thing about the West is people look for the similarities and they look for what how does this relate to me specifically and say that?
And so we need to communicate and collaborate so that we can gain that understanding. Because even though, you know, I might be able to have more of voice among younger people that still need the wisdom from you.
And if we need to hear you, yeah, right. There's an interesting I get encouraged by India saying that it was like, Oh yeah, it's through a door. Yeah. So I think one thing, if that's lacking in the last of what I'm passionate about is that we do need a model of what this is like in a.
At the city level of what it looks and sounds like as completely organic, decentralized churches operating as a part of a city church. But I'm not saying it's the only way that there are other ways of doing that as a larger stretch of the church.
But it does state models like the ones that caught on that far along in its orbit that have been pursuing it for eight years. We need more of those kinds of models, not because it's like it's perfect, OK, but just for somebody to be able to see and hear whatever it is.
That's why people it just like our example, though, like, Hey, what does this look like in a Western context? This is a way.
That.
Says the only way is not saying that we don't have issues or challenges, OK? But at least in the West. The thing is we can go overseas and see that stuff in a bunch of places, OK? But there aren't a lot in a western context, in a western context yet because of that individual.
How does the predominance of another model look? So I think for us to connect, communicate, collaborate, be able to articulate those things both the same and to be able to see that is important in the Western context.
I think that's great. No, I'm not going to anything else that we need to cover everything else you want to talk about.
We could talk while.
I'm not sure I had a guy because I could talk longer, but obviously I made as much sense as good as.
Enjoyed listening to him.
Thank you for listening to the aswani podcast. If you're interested in learning more about this topic or getting connected with other disciple makers in your area, visit your loved one another short life. Again, that's.
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